00:00 Nicole Wallace The Trump administration is trying to declare case closed. 00:03 Nothing to see here with the Epstein files. 00:05 But they're just about the only people saying that. 00:09 It's not even clear if they believe that to be true. 00:11 The criticisms are mounting. 00:12 They're getting louder and louder. 00:14 And they're increasingly on the right over the mishandling on the part of Donald Trump and his cabinet of the release of the files. 00:20 Listen to what right wing MAGA friendly podcaster Sean Ryan had to say about it. 00:27 Sean Ryan You're going to protect pedophiles. 00:30 You're going to protect pedophiles rather than go after them and hope that everybody's happy that the Dow hit 50,000. 00:38 Are you out of your mind? 00:42 I guess the whole drain the swamp campaign promise was another 00:47 lie huh man the lies are stacking up fast I've never seen so many lies appear in what a year it's only been a year look at all the lies 01:00 Nicole Wallace I mostly love him because he swears more than I do. 01:03 But that's a huge deal for his audience, for the people who go to him, for his take on the news to hear that cannot be overstated. 01:11 What a big break that is with Trump and MAGA. 01:15 And I think he was speaking right to you, Pam. 01:19 In Congress, the investigations into those lies he is referencing and what has been revealed in the Epstein files are just getting started as well. 01:27 Tomorrow, the House Oversight Committee will question billionaire Les Wexner, who is named thousands of times in the Epstein files that have been released by the Justice Department. 01:36 He was named as a possible co-conspirator as well. 01:39 David and Alex are still here. 01:40 Are you surprised by the reaction? 01:43 This feels like an issue where the permission structure was baked in before Trump was reelected because this issue was such a huge deal on the right. 01:50 But even understanding that, as I've come to understand that, I am surprised by how enraged they are by the handling. 01:58 David Frum I'm not surprised because you have to understand, or you have to recall, because you do understand it, what role the Epstein story played in the MAGA imagination. 02:06 This is not a scandal like the Qatar jet or Trump taking money from the businessmen in UAE to release chips. 02:13 This is a religion. 02:15 Totally. 02:15 Nicole Wallace It's a value statement. 02:17 David Frum What MAGA people were told is there's a global conspiracy of cannibalistic, satanic pedophiles 02:23 that permeates the entire upper strata of American society. 02:28 They're often anti-Semitic overtones. 02:29 This is not always, but often. 02:30 But there is this vast conspiracy of blood-sucking vampiric cannibals. 02:34 And there is one Jesus figure who is defending America against this satanic conspiracy, and that is Donald Trump. 02:40 Now, according to the religion, he can't tell you everything right away. 02:43 But rest assured, in the darkness, Donald Trump is battling Satan. 02:47 And then it turns out, actually, no, he and Satan were best friends. 02:50 He's in the Satan files a million times or whatever it is. 02:53 And in fact, he's engaged. 02:54 He's engaged. 02:55 It's not it's not like a cover up of a scandal. 02:58 It is the collapse of a whole system of religious belief. 03:01 That was the one thing that compensated people for the true fact that Donald Trump was making their material lives in every way worse from the first moment he became president. 03:09 Nicole Wallace I think it's also that they've made the wrong assessment. 03:12 This gets back to sort of the weakness of his political information stream. 03:16 The political damage for Trump isn't just being in them, it's hiding them. 03:21 Hiding them is the thing that goes against this religion and this worldview. 03:25 David Frum Well, because it raises the question, in this world, there are two kinds of people, people who believe the pedophile vampire story and people who are in the pedophile vampire network. 03:34 So if you are not actively revealing the pedophile vampire story, what does that say? 03:39 You're probably yourself a pedophile vampire. 03:41 And that's a trick that the MAGA world played against Hillary Clinton. 03:45 It played it against John Podesta. 03:47 It played it against, that's the Pizzagate story. 03:49 You either believe our religion or you are Satan. 03:52 And now Donald Trump is revealing himself as a nonbeliever in the religion. 03:56 So what does that mean? 03:57 Satan. 03:58 Nicole Wallace I also think that's that's the inner ring that kept this story alive for the seven intervening years where it was sort of a law enforcement story and then became a political story. 04:10 And now it is again a law enforcement story. 04:12 But I think the outer ring is people that voted for Trump because they hate the elites. 04:18 Yes. 04:18 And now, like, he's also defying the sort of religiosity of MAGA. 04:23 But he's also offending the much bigger ring of people that swung over to him because, one, they thought that the price of everything would go down. 04:31 And, two, they thought he would be more transparent about the powerful people trafficking young girls. 04:36 Totally. 04:36 Alex Wagner I mean, all due respect for those who believed in pedophile—well, not due respect, but pedophile vampires aside— 04:41 There is the fundamental belief, and it's not necessarily wrong that the system is rigged against common folks. 04:48 Especially young girls. 04:50 Yes, and the sex crimes piece of it is the worst layer of it. 04:54 But the idea that Donald Trump was going to unrig the system and drain the swamp, that was central to his message, and that is why he was elected by a larger portion of the country than just the 15 to 25 percent of maggot that believe in the pedophile vampire QAnon story, right? 05:09 And he has done nothing... 05:11 but double down on the notion that the system exists for and by the elites, whether it is the affordability crisis that he has done nothing to allay, the tariffs that just do not benefit the American public, immigration enforcement that is gutting, you know, the labor force that is also screwing up the American economy to say nothing of terrorizing a large portion of this country. 05:34 And then you have his behavior in and around the Epstein files. 05:37 It's not as if more material comes out and there's nothing in it. 05:41 More material comes out and everyone's like, why didn't we have this? 05:44 You're seeing resignations at the highest levels of European governments. 05:49 Well, where's the comeuppance here in the United States? 05:51 And American companies. 05:52 Nicole Wallace Well, you say why. 05:52 Alex Wagner private business. 05:53 The only person who seems intent on closing this Pandora's box is Donald Trump. 05:58 It's like the man's never seen a detective story. 06:00 The more you protest about nothing. 06:03 It's not me. 06:04 I have nothing to do. 06:04 God, I'm exonerated. 06:06 The more likely it is that you are actually playing a central role. 06:08 David Frum Here's the why. 06:09 And if I can indulge just a minute of maybe irresponsible speculation. 06:14 When Donald Trump tried to keep the story closed, did he just do that because of 06:17 aimless malice? 06:19 Did he do that because of his own reputation? 06:21 Or were these revelations a potential source of power in the past few months that he's been using? 06:26 And I just wonder, the people who are in the files, who have been named, some of whom have suffered very severe career-ending shame, who may be on their way to criminal jeopardy, did any of them have conversations with Donald Trump? 06:39 I'm saying this in a speculative way in the past year or even before that said, you know, I could really use your help on this matter because no one would be more distressed than me. 06:47 if these stories about you came into public view? 06:51 Nicole Wallace I mean, it argues, though, for him to benefit politically again. 06:55 I don't know why. 06:56 I can't care more than he does about his political health. 07:00 But, I mean, to get them all out and let the ships fall with him. 07:02 But you're right. 07:03 And his pardon behavior... 07:05 David Frum The question is, was he pressuring people? 07:07 Was he using this as a source of power to pressure people over the past few months?