00:00 David Plotz The following podcast contains explicit language. 00:10 Hello and welcome to the Slate Political Gab Fest for July 13th, 2017, the I Love It edition. 00:15 I am David Plotz of Atlas Obscura. 00:18 We are all together again. 00:20 That means a lineup, a diet of John Dickerson of Face the Nation. 00:24 Howdy, John. 00:25 Hello, David. 00:26 And Emily Bazelon of the New York Times Magazine. 00:29 Hello, Emily, still in Washington. 00:31 Emily Bazelon Yay. 00:32 David Plotz Hello. 00:32 How is it being in the swamp? 00:34 Emily Bazelon You know, it got hot this week, but I'm really happy to be here. 00:37 I've been having a great time. 00:38 David Plotz That's great. 00:39 Yeah. 00:39 I'm so glad. 00:40 How's my parents' house? 00:42 Emily Bazelon Your parents' house is lovely. 00:43 It's cool. 00:45 It's peaceful. 00:46 The backyard is nice. 00:48 We've been having a lovely time at your parents' house. 00:50 That's great. 00:50 Thank you to your parents. 00:51 David Plotz Yay. 00:52 On this week's GabFest, Donald Trump Jr., a chip off the old block. 00:58 and the snowballing story of his mysterious Russian meetings. 01:02 Then, is this finally the final chapter in the Obamacare repeal drama as a Senate? 01:08 The Senate gets to its last moments with this bill. 01:11 Is this our Deathly Hallows, our return of the Jedi with health care? 01:14 I don't know. 01:15 Probably not. 01:16 No doubt. 01:16 We'll be talking about it forever. 01:18 Then, the New York Times' Mark Leibovitch drops by for a visit to talk about the state of Washington. 01:24 of the state of this town in the age of trump plus we will have cocktail chatter it is about 10 o'clock in the morning as we're taping on thursday so whatever stunning revelation is coming today about trump family ties to russia or collusion or 01:42 desirous collusion or what what was your uh collusion curious wait collusion curious collusion curious john's great phrase about it whatever whatever is coming today has not yet occurred every day this week has brought us astonishing news about russian meddling in the election and the trump campaign's eagerness to embrace it the central figure in this cancer of a story is donald trump jr 02:06 The scion of the president born on third base thought he hit a home run. 02:10 By now, you have all heard the story that Junior received an email missive from the ridiculous Rob Goldstone proposing a meeting with a Russian promising dirt on Hillary Clinton and referring to the Russian campaign to a Russian campaign to help Trump get elected. 02:26 Trump Junior, of course, responded, I love it. 02:29 And a meeting ensued between the Kremlin tied Russian lawyer named Natalia 02:34 Can you guys pronounce it? 02:37 You must have had to say it on television, Tom. 02:39 Not yet. 02:43 As well as Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort. 02:46 We should also keep in mind, of course, that Trump and Trump Jr. and everybody else has lied and lied and lied. 02:51 repeatedly about whether they had any Russian contacts, lied on federal forms, lied to the FBI about it. 02:58 Now, when it is clear they did have Russian contacts, they lied about what the contacts consisted of. 03:04 So how bad is this story for President Trump, John? 03:08 John Dickerson I mean, it's bad. 03:09 It's a distraction. 03:10 It undermines his ability to say there's no proof of collusion, although we should talk about it. 03:16 It's obvious that the president's son was thrilled about the idea of collusion. 03:20 What this doesn't to me prove is that actually collusion happened. 03:24 Collusion in the way we've been talking about it is means an ongoing effort to work in concert with the Russians. 03:30 To get Donald Trump elected, that's different than what happened at this meeting or what we know happened after the meeting or anything like that. 03:37 Emily Bazelon But anyway, that's important for not getting ahead of the facts. 03:40 John Dickerson Right. 03:40 And yes. 03:41 So his position still is, whether it's the truth or not, his position still is that he didn't know about this meeting. 03:46 So that's so we don't know. 03:48 Emily Bazelon Right. 03:49 But the we had nothing to do with Russia, my campaign, you know, Don Jr. 03:53 This is Don Jr., not the president, but saying like this is a disgusting allegation. 03:56 There's a whole sort of set of rhetorical outrage that has now been completely punctured. 04:01 John Dickerson Absolutely. 04:02 Right. 04:02 And so it's a it's a lot stickier for him. 04:06 And who knows where this will lead. 04:08 And if the bar is so low for a meeting where collusion with the Russian government is promised, then presumably in other instances, 04:15 Since we know the Russians were in an ongoing constant effort to destabilize the election to help Donald Trump, were there no other entry points of connection between the two? 04:26 And if the bar was so low in this one entry point, it is not insane to think there might have been another instance where there might have – now, none of that's been proved. 04:34 Emily Bazelon Can I add one more thing to that that I think is important, which is why would Jared Kushner be secretly setting up a back channel with the Kremlin five months later if there was nothing in between? 04:45 John Dickerson And again, I have the opposite reaction, actually. 04:47 Emily Bazelon Oh, really? 04:48 John Dickerson Like, yeah, I'm like, if there was a collusion effort, why would they have such a shambolic caper as this? 04:54 Emily Bazelon promoter sending an email which then don jr is excited to receive wouldn't there be existing setup channels for this collusion but that is fine as a premise for like the bumbling way in which this approach was made but it doesn't to me suggest and again i we're in the realm of like suggestion and inference but the notion that between july and 05:18 That Kushner back channel secret moment in December, I believe there was nothing in between. 05:24 I mean, I don't know. 05:25 I just find that I'm skeptical. 05:28 John Dickerson I mean, certainly we've things that have been said didn't exist now do exist. 05:32 Emily Bazelon So there's obviously the possibility that we also know there's other stuff. 05:35 David Plotz I mean, Michael Flynn stuff is all going on in between in between in between. 05:38 So. 05:39 Emily Bazelon Exactly. 05:39 And we have this McClatchy story about how the Mueller investigation is looking into how Jared Kushner's data analytics potentially could have helped the Russians figure out how to target their social media anti-Hillary. 05:51 John Dickerson I didn't hear that story. 05:53 Emily Bazelon Wow. 05:53 Yeah, no, totally. 05:54 John Dickerson But I never got to my butt, which is that unlike the question of obstruction where the president is the central actor in that drama, in this case, there is still no evidence that he was a part of this. 06:07 There aren't any facts that put the president at the center of this drama. 06:10 They have now put the drama closer to him in terms of the circles of his acquaintances. 06:16 But in terms of the president's jeopardy, while it's obviously politically quite damaging or it doesn't get closer to him in terms of it seems to me impeachment issues, which again, since impeachment is not legal, it's political. 06:28 You don't have the president at the center in a way that's going to get Republicans to start bailing. 06:33 David Plotz Well, I want to talk about that, Emily. 06:34 So there's actually been surprisingly little response, I would say, to the story from Republicans generally. 06:39 And I assume that this is – I think there's the – well, we're going to allow the Mueller investigation to continue and that's what we're going to focus on. 06:46 And that gives Congress – Republicans in Congress a pass to have to do anything. 06:50 But there is absolutely no evidence that there's any internal movement to abhor, to investigate, to condemn, to prevent the recurrence of this behavior. 06:59 It's just they just are not dealing with it. 07:01 Is there any – do you see any reason to think that Republicans in Congress are going to be moved by this? 07:08 They have not been moved by anything so far, by the rampant corruption, by the incompetence, by all the other tremendous evidence of collaboration with their adversary. 07:19 Emily Bazelon No, I don't see any reason to think they'll be moved. 07:22 And I have two reactions to this. 07:24 I mean, one is that if you think about the politics, it's pretty rational. 07:27 If anything, they could see their window closing even sooner, right? 07:31 So, you know, the rush to – maybe this is the real reason they're not going out for their August recess. 07:37 Like, yes, they want to pass this health care bill, but also they can see that – 07:41 you know, already the time is ticking away. 07:44 And if this is going to completely engulf the party and the government and the president, they better like pass something while they can. 07:53 So there's that motivation. 07:55 The other thing, though, that I keep going back to, and I mean, John, you know a lot more about this than me, but, you know, some of the 08:01 Republicans in Congress have staked their career on protecting the country from foreign interference, especially from the Russians. 08:11 I mean, back to the Cold War. 08:12 And so the notion that they would stand by while potentially, you know, 08:17 Our longtime enemy and Vladimir Putin, an alarming world figure, is literally potentially infiltrating the presidency and the government. 08:28 I understand that the base has not fled from Trump, but I find it like shocking, just devastating. 08:36 Deeply shocking. 08:37 I'm going to retain my right to be shocked about that because it is crazy. 08:41 And if you imagine what would be happening if President Obama or Hillary Clinton had anything like this. 08:48 David Plotz One 20th of this. 08:49 Emily Bazelon One 100th of it. 08:50 It's just I just find it jaw-dropping. 08:55 John Dickerson The previous standard was that to even suggest that anybody in the Trump campaign was in conversation with Russians trying to meddle in the election was an abhorrent smear. 09:05 Kellyanne Conway suggested that when I asked her about it. 09:08 The vice president did as well. 09:10 Even the president's son was when I asked about it by Jake Tapper on CNN suggested that even to hint at the idea there was any conversation was a calumny that shouldn't even be uttered by responsible members of the press. 09:24 And now one of the defenses is essentially, hey, nothing happened. 09:29 So he got an email, you know, no big deal. 09:32 But if you just focus on the response to the email, which is I love it, and then let's go have a meeting with people claiming to be from the Russian government offering information. 09:40 By the previous standard, by the reactions when asked about it over the last many months, by that standard, this was, you know, a grave act. 09:48 David Plotz But if the American public or the representatives who represent them from the Republican Party will not make a consequence of that, will not hold that president to account, will not say that this is a serious issue, it doesn't matter. 10:03 It's incredible. 10:04 Emily Bazelon And that's frightening. 10:05 David Plotz And, John, you didn't really answer Emily's point, which is you have these people in Congress who have made such a big deal about these issues in the past and who have so abandoned it. 10:15 And you have John McCain who will say a word or two. 10:19 Emily Bazelon Right. 10:21 David Plotz But there's no active effort. 10:23 Maybe they're like, well, Mueller's investigating and we'll just let Mueller do it. 10:27 Emily Bazelon But they can't be like that because Congress also has to investigate. 10:31 Sorry, John. 10:31 John Dickerson Well, they don't want to. 10:33 There is a sanctions package that voted overwhelmingly out of the Senate. 10:37 David Plotz That has nothing to do with it. 10:38 That punishes Russia. 10:39 That does not punish the wrong actions of Americans. 10:43 So hold on just a step back. 10:44 John Dickerson So if the claim is, what do these senators do who care so much about Russia? 10:48 So that's the answer. 10:49 The senators who care about Russia and Russia's threat to America and the threat as it was demonstrated in the last election by interfering in the election. 10:56 They have, in fact, passed legislation designed to punish Russia for that thing, which is still not law because it is stuck in the house. 11:03 One of the things that's really interesting though about – and the biggest development if you care about Russia and the United States and its relationship with that adversary slash enemy is the meeting that the president had with Vladimir Putin and the disclosure of the weekend seemingly by the president that he wants to basically move on so that the Russians will pay – 11:21 No penalty for interfering in the election. 11:24 And the reason that's important is there are a number of people including former candidate Donald Trump and his secretary of state who argue that if you show weakness towards Russia when they do something, if you don't punish them, that they then are invited to go do more things. 11:37 This has excited the passions of those people in the Republican Party who are worried about Russia. 11:43 And they then ridiculed essentially the president when the president announced as one of the great achievements of the meeting with Vladimir Putin that they had this joint cyber unit. 11:52 I mean, when Marco Rubio, who is a pretty risk averse politician, is saying that joint cyber unit with the Russians is like a joint chemical weapons unit with Assad. 12:00 That's a pretty universal condemnation of an idea, again, related to those Republicans who Emily was talking about earlier. 12:07 who are not fans of Russia and where do they behave? 12:10 So that's a place where they can react and not have to get into having to jump on Donald Trump. 12:16 David Plotz But it's so easy to react. 12:18 I could react. 12:19 I mean, we can all react to Russia. 12:20 I mean, it's as easy as pie to react to Russia. 12:25 Why are they so incredibly unwilling to look at this that's clearly abhorrent, reprehensible, possibly illegal, certainly unethical and wrongheaded behavior – 12:37 And stand up. 12:39 John Dickerson But the idea of the claim was that they're not living up to their previous standard of being tough on Russia. 12:44 Emily Bazelon So if the claim is they're not being tough on Russia, then the fact that they're tough on Russia, well, about the United States and how we protect our democracy and our right to have our own free and independent government from interference. 12:58 John Dickerson But that's why they voted to impose sanctions on the country that was perpetrating the. 13:02 Emily Bazelon I mean, you're talking about like a half passed bill. 13:05 That's it. 13:06 John Dickerson Well, the senators can't pass a bill through the House. 13:08 Emily Bazelon These are people – this is a party. 13:12 Wait a minute. 13:12 John Dickerson What else would you have them do? 13:14 Go on cable TV and wag their finger? 13:16 David Plotz What's more useful? 13:17 You don't think these people have any – This is a party that spent most of the 20th century rooting out communism and rooting out Americans who they perceive to be siding with an enemy, with an adversary. 13:31 John Dickerson What thing would you have them do? 13:33 That is more substantial than passing sanctions that would actually punish the Russians and that the Russians don't want. 13:40 Emily Bazelon I think the Congress. 13:41 What would you actually have the Senate investigative committee, Senator Burr's committee? 13:46 They need to be saying this is the moment when we really get to the bottom of this. 13:51 We make what we know public. 13:52 We drag all these people out here like we're ramping it up. 13:56 We're take like all of them, like Don Jr., 13:58 Jared Kushner, these people, they have asked him, but it all is happening kind of slowly and sedately. 14:07 There is no sense of urgency or anything like approaching like a five alarm. 14:12 John Dickerson But still, by the way, which is more punished, which punishes the Russians more sanctions or having Jared Kushner testify? 14:18 Emily Bazelon But you are assuming that punishing the Russians is the only thing on the table, and I just think that's bullshit. 14:23 John Dickerson But you guys are saying the entire standard of the question in the debate has been these guys are total hypocrites because they've hated Russia, and now they're not. 14:29 No, because it's only about protecting the United States. 14:31 David Plotz Well, go back and listen. 14:32 John Dickerson Protecting the United States against who? 14:34 But protecting the United States against the Russians? 14:36 Yes, against Americans. 14:38 David Plotz Americans who are betraying the country and undermining a Democrat democracy and undermining the electoral system. 14:44 Absolutely. 14:45 Emily Bazelon If nothing else, we know now how vulnerable these people were to blackmail. 14:48 Also, I got to add one more fact to this because I really think this is important. 14:53 The president of the United States said to AP or Reuters yesterday, I think a lot of people would have taken that meeting. 15:00 I mean that is like with – on the basis of that email, the part of the Russian government's effort to – like that is creeping up to the idea that collusion with Russia or at least the potential of going down that road is acceptable conduct for someone who is running for president. 15:17 That is something that republicans – 15:19 Like they are very good at reacting slash overreacting to allegations like that, to intimations like that when they feel like it. 15:28 Instead, we're seeing like this incredibly flabby, quiet nothing. 15:33 This is the nothing burger of the week. 15:35 John Dickerson So that point I totally agree with. 15:37 So the speed with which Jared Kushner is going to testify doesn't do much for me. 15:43 But at this moment when somebody is trying to suggest a new norm about what happens in campaigns, particularly on this question of what happens with respect to the Russians, who the previous nominee of the party said was America's number one geopolitical foe. 15:58 to suggest that an email that comes and says the Russian government is trying to help your father and we've got dirt, that just accepting that and saying, oh, yeah, sure, I'll take that meeting is normal. 16:08 It is the responsibility of people to say, no, that's not normal because while many, many, many things have been done in campaigns that are underhanded, I mean, Richard Nixon working with the South and North Vietnamese to slow down the peace talks so that Humphrey wouldn't win is pretty grim in terms of the kinds of things that have happened in campaigns, but there have been instances where 16:28 Tom Downey, when he got what was supposed to be the briefing book from the Bush campaign in 2000, handed it over immediately to the FBI and recused himself from debate stuff when he worked for Gore. 16:37 Goldwater chose not to go after Walter Jenkins when he was arrested for a lewd act in a YMCA bathroom. 16:43 McCain restrained a lot of things about Obama's race that were brought to him by people wanting to take on to Obama. 16:49 Dean Rusk, in a quote that I just found in the 1968 race, they're talking about these wiretaps they have showing that Nixon was trying to slow down the talks in order to hurt Humphrey. 16:59 And Rusk said, 17:00 Mr. President, I have a very definite view on this. 17:02 This is about whether to use the wiretaps to hurt Nixon. 17:05 I do not believe that any president can make any use of interceptions or telephone taps in any way that would involve politics. 17:11 The moment we cross over that divide, we are in a different kind of society. 17:15 That was on a taped phone conversation with Johnson, and they decided not to use the wiretaps to hurt Nixon. 17:20 Emily Bazelon Well, I'm really glad you brought all of that up because also now we're back on the same page. 17:25 And I am going to bring up a law in addition to all the norms we're worried about, which is the foreign solicitation ban. 17:31 So we have this law on the books. 17:33 It's illegal to ask a foreigner for a contribution. 17:36 Giving anything of value, and that can be goods and services as well as money, is a contribution. 17:41 And so asking a foreigner to give goods or services to a campaign below value is illegal. 17:46 I have stolen all of that from Adav Noti. 17:49 But look, that is a really broad law. 17:52 And I've been thinking this week about whether it's overbroad and Eugene Volick, a law professor at UCLA, I think, argued that it violates the First Amendment because it's such a broad prohibition. 18:02 But the reason we have this broad law is… 18:05 is that we want to make sure that our elections are free from foreign influence. 18:09 There is no reason to think that other countries are on our side in making sure that we remain free and independent and have fair and free elections. 18:16 That's just not something we can assume. 18:18 And that is what's at stake here. 18:20 I'm not sure that anyone broke this law. 18:23 This is where we don't want to get ahead of the facts. 18:26 But the fact that we've constructed these rules to... 18:32 To be so broad is indicative of what's at stake. 18:36 David Plotz I want to make two final points. 18:38 One is, John, I think you are vastly underplaying the responsibility of the legislature of the United States to – 18:46 John Dickerson To pass sanctions legislation? 18:48 David Plotz No. 18:50 To ensure that our elections are free and fair and not disrupted and that Americans themselves are not getting into bed with people seeking to undermine the very foundation of democracy. 19:05 I don't know if there's a crime committed, but I don't think it's enough for John McCain and Lindsey Graham to mutter a couple of vaguely condemnatory phrases every now and then. 19:14 I think there does have to be actual 19:16 interrogative action by Congress and actual intent to by Congress. 19:22 So that's the first point I would make. 19:23 The second point I want to make is at the same time, I also think that Democrats and liberals are awfully premature in their celebrations and their glee. 19:33 And there's been this kind of Twitter delight and declarations of victory in the last few days, which I think are so misguided. 19:42 Emily Bazelon Be more specific. 19:43 Victory about what? 19:43 David Plotz Well, it's just like there's a sense like, well, it's game, set and match. 19:48 We've got it. 19:49 Now we've mailed it. 19:50 Like we've found evidence of collusion or the – basically a smoking gun of collusion. 19:55 It's just – now it's just a matter of getting some prosecutions done and this presidency is over. 20:01 This presidency does not end because we find collusion with Russia. 20:08 This presidency – 20:09 has so many other dangerous things going on, and it's going to persist. 20:12 And, like, the Democrats are in such a better position when they argue on issues, particularly around health care, around taxes. 20:19 And to spend as much mental energy as they're spending on this issue, I think, is going to be a mistake for them. 20:25 Emily Bazelon Well, it's got to be both, right? 20:27 I mean, you have to, in a, like, sober way, I think it's important for Democrats to pay attention, to, like, not ignore it. 20:34 But I completely agree with you, imagining that this is, like – 20:38 This email was a smoking gun of a sort that we rarely see. 20:42 Let's give it its due. 20:43 But it is – has not proven a crime. 20:46 It's not directly tied to the president as John was saying. 20:49 And like even with Nixon and Watergate, it took almost two years. 20:52 John Dickerson So if actions are more important than words, what kinds of actions can Congress actually take? 20:58 So they can convene hearings and have committees do focus on one issue more than any other. 21:05 So you've got the House Intelligence Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee focusing on this question of Russian interference in the election above all other issues. 21:13 Television networks are covering the hearings live regularly. 21:17 That gives you some sense of what Congress is doing. 21:19 There are two committees on the Intelligence Committee on both the House and the Senate. 21:22 Then you have the Judiciary Committees in both the House and the Senate looking into this issue. 21:26 And you've got the only piece of – substantive piece of bipartisan legislation. 21:31 David Plotz Hold on. 21:32 Wait a minute. 21:32 Wait a minute. 21:32 You know they are slow walking those committees. 21:34 You know it. 21:34 You've been in Washington. 21:36 You're a 49-year-old person. 21:38 You've been in Washington all this time. 21:39 For you to say – 21:40 For you to say that the Senate and House committees are engaged in a really vigorous attempt to ferret out the truth and very active is like – that is so disingenuous. 21:48 No, no. 21:48 John Dickerson All I'm doing is trying to respond to the thing you actually said. 21:52 Emily Bazelon The director of the FBI, Trump's choice for the FBI is about to get confirmed with like no fuss. 21:58 John Dickerson Hold on. 21:58 Let's stop shifting the ground. 21:59 Let's stay on the original ground of the – 22:01 So that's a good point. 22:05 No, that's a really good point. 22:06 But let's go back to the previous ground, which is David's claim that only a few words are being mumbled. 22:11 So if that's true, then there would be no hearings. 22:14 Now, the hearings may be slow walk. 22:16 That is a totally new piece of ground. 22:18 We can debate about that and just assume that you're relinquishing the original argument, which I assume you are since you've shifted to the new ground. 22:25 No one's relinquishing any grabs here. 22:28 Emily Bazelon We're not relinquishing any grabs. 22:31 John Dickerson The claim that all people have done is mumbled a few words is wrong on its face. 22:36 Emily Bazelon Do you think they're doing everything they could do and shouldn't be doing? 22:40 John Dickerson Well, let's ask that. 22:41 So now that's a new claim. 22:42 Are they doing everything they should and could be doing? 22:45 OK, so your claim about the FBI director is perfectly right. 22:48 So should he not get the job? 22:50 That's a really interesting question. 22:51 I don't know what the answer to that is. 22:52 What would the grounds be for him not getting confirmed? 22:56 Emily Bazelon If you really were concerned, you could just say let's hit the pause button on the FBI. 23:00 That maybe this president, we don't want to get ahead of the facts, but we also are not sure we can trust his choice. 23:07 And so this is an incredibly sensitive position. 23:10 This is the person who is going to be overseeing the investigation of the campaign and of this Russian influence. 23:17 And you know what? 23:18 We're not going to confirm anyone right now. 23:20 John Dickerson Who oversees it now? 23:22 Emily Bazelon Andrew McCabe, who's the FBI interim director, who's a career guy. 23:26 And like, as far as we know, it's happening. 23:28 I mean, we are about to be in a position in which Bob Mueller and Rod Rosenstein are like standing between us and the end of having oversight over having an investigation into the president and his top people. 23:43 That's it. 23:43 If Trump decides to fire Mueller and Rosenstein either resigns or lets that happen, like that's the game. 23:51 John Dickerson Then the new FBI director is the only other. 23:53 Emily Bazelon You think this guy who Trump just appointed? 23:55 No, no. 23:56 It is actually – we are up against the wall in a way that is like potentially scary. 24:01 I don't – 24:02 I'm so not. 24:04 John Dickerson Why do you think no Democrat raised that in the issue in the in the hearing? 24:07 Emily Bazelon I don't know. 24:08 I think this is like a personally I don't know why we are filling this position right now. 24:13 It just seems like a big mistake. 24:16 Like there are just not enough safeguards in place right now. 24:20 The guardrails are too thin. 24:21 They're not enough people.